Host:
This is the best health podcast brought to you by wake forest Baptist health in partnership with MedCost. Good day everyone. Welcome back to the latest episode of the best health podcast brought to you by wake forest Baptist health. This is Justin Gomez joining you. Once again, thank you all for listening to our podcast and being loyal listeners or if you're a first time listener, you picked a great podcast to, to jump on and join for your first time. Um, this is, uh, part of this series that we're continuing that, um, our Covid 19 Coronavirus related podcasts. Um, and before I dive too, too far quickly into this podcast topic for today, um, which we're going to be looking at the cosmology of Coronavirus, which I think is very interesting and, um, we have a great guest to talk about that today. Uh, but I do want to let everyone know at the top of this episode, um, you have a couple of really good resources.
Host:
If you need more information about COVID-19, um, you can call our wake forest Baptist health hotline at three three six seven zero covid, three three six seven zero covid and that's manned 24 seven and you can also visit wakehealth.edu/coronavirus wakehealth.edu/coronavirus, all kinds of good information resources on their FAQ, um, clinic updates, visitor restriction updates. There's a self assessment tool that you can take. Um, so, uh, all the podcasts that we've done that are Coronavirus related are also listed on there. So, um, invite you all to check that out, uh, as well. Uh, I did want to go ahead and get started with our guest today. Um, Dr. Fry Morgan. Uh, he's a third year psychiatry residents here at wake forest Baptist health. Um, welcome Dr. Morgan. How are you sir? Um, all right, thanks for having me Justin. Um, yeah, no problem. Thank you for taking time out and chatting with us today. Um, so, um, we're going to dive into the cosmology of Coronavirus here in a minute. But before we do, um, if you wouldn't mind just telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and, and, um, how, how you got into psychiatry.
Dr. Morgan:
Well, like you said, I'm a third year psychiatry resident. It's a four year residency program. Um, how I got into psychiatry, um, long story, but, um, the short version of it was until my last maybe year or two in medical school overseas. I was interested in, um, more of a surgical specialties that was, um, back in Egypt where I'm from, where I grew up. Um, I was part of a lot of the, um, social upheaval that happened back there in the Arab spring. And that essentially shifted my interest initially towards psychology and that segwayed into clinical psychiatry of course. Um, and then a lot of theory of mind and why people disagree about stuff, why people perceive things the way they, uh, they do, despite the incidents and circumstances probably being the same, but people react very differently. Yeah. So that was a general change in my direction.
Dr. Morgan:
Interesting. Um, well that's really cool. I'm glad that you're here at wake forest Baptist working with us. Um, I'm just going to kind of jump in at a very, uh, basic foundational level, uh, if you wouldn't mind explaining for all of us listening, um, what is cosmology? Just kind of give us a brief overview of, of what cosmology is and, and why we should, um, why we should pay attention to it. Yes. So cosmology, um, the term from a physical sciences perspective is the study of the universe or the cosmos, the physical study of that. Um, and the philosophical interpretation of that is how the, uh, universe as a whole relates to life in its and how life in the universe relates to it. And that includes us as humans. So cosmology is how do we as humans relate to the universe around us and everything that is in the universe in a relational way.
Dr. Morgan:
Very interesting. Uh, so how about the COVID-19 pandemics fit into all of this? Um, you know, it's, it's kind of taken over our lives, uh, seemingly in, in some way, one way or the other. Um, the last, the last little bit here and caused us to change our, our day to day life structure and schedules. And, um, you know, from your perspective, how do you think COVID-19 fits fits into the cosmology? Well, with it being, like you said, something that has taken over our lives, um, Coronavirus or COVID-19 now is not only a, um, a term you hear in a microbiology class. It is definitely something that has been affecting each and every one of us, not just at a, not just at an intellectual level, on a very personal, um, level that affects how we move about day to day, how we interact with other people. Um, how it affects our jobs. It's like you said, it's affecting everything. So in that sense it is core to how we conceptualize our relationship with our universe. Um, and city cosmology of coronavirus. Okay. So, you know, kind of looking at, um, your normal cosmology, studying and way of looking at, um,
Host:
and then tying that into COVID-19. What, what inspired try relating covet 19 into overall cosmology?
Dr. Morgan:
I think the starting point for me, um, well initially it was the personal question for me. How do I relate to this? How am I going to move around with this new factor in my life? Um, like all the changes that are happening in my life because of, um, Coronavirus. And then it expanded a little bit to, well, how can I be useful in my position as a psychiatry resident working mostly in outpatient clinical settings? Um, how can I be useful for my patients and for people around me, um, in interacting with this [inaudible] people are suffering, people are having different kinds of hardships, be it physical health or financial or emotional. Um, how can I help myself and others, um, relate to this in a wholesome, healthy way?
Host:
[inaudible] so that is a, that's a good point. Um, you know, how can we relate to this and, and provide some, um, I guess a positive contribution to the, to the cosmos, um, instead of, instead of, uh, contributing the opposite of that. Um, you know, looking at that, and I was reading a little bit of what you wrote online. You are, uh, Ian's after, after the stockpile toilet paper has been used up and the masking gowns had been discarded. We'll have time, you know, the luxury of, of drawing profound insights in life lessons from the same dynamic. Um, you know what, I guess expand a little bit on that. What do you, what do you think in we're going to be able to sit down and, and, and look into from a insightful perspective and what life lessons, you know, I've heard several people out in the news media and on social media talk about, well this was, you know, we don't, we didn't want Coronavirus, we didn't want Covin 19. Obviously we didn't want this huge disruption in our lives, but because of this situation that, I mean, I found myself being able to do this or I had the opportunity to do that where I normally wouldn't be able to. Um, so I guess if you wouldn't mind just talking about maybe, you know, if we could think about after we get past this crisis time that we're in now, you know, what types of insights or of life lessons do you think we would learn from, from the pandemic,
Dr. Morgan:
of course. And I'd like to take a step a little bit even before that, even before jumping into when the pandemic is over. Um, I would like to touch on, well, what about now? Yeah. And, um, I want to do this very consciously because I do not want to fall into the trap of what some may call toxic positivity. Okay. Um, I, I definitely want to be very mindful and aware of that. Um, I do not think that right now is the time to speak. For example, about the silver lining of a pandemic. I can't speak of a silver lining when folks are, um, losing jobs, losing financial security or losing loved ones to illness or to death. So I want to almost put out a disclaimer that I come from a place of acknowledging the suffering. I don't want to minimize it. Um, I don't want to sugarcoat in any way and because this suffering is very, um, real and because a lot of it is unavoidable and inevitable for most of us.
Dr. Morgan:
Um, like I said, arranging the spectrum up from financial difficulty or financial suffering all the way to physical and health. Um, I come from a place of, um, what psychiatrist Victor Frankel described as, um, logotherapy, um, where he speaks about inevitable suffering. Like what can we do when suffering is established to be inevitable and avoidable? Well, what's next? And he's the one that said, when we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. Um, and he also says, um, if there is a meaning in life at all, then there must be meaning in suffering. Um, so and that's an acknowledgement of suffering is unavoidable, um, part of life. Interesting. And to put in context, Viktor Frankl was a Holocaust survivor and he said, he said those words after he made it through the Holocaust. That's why it has a lot of value.
Dr. Morgan:
Ah, gotcha, gotcha. Looking at that from that context, you know, is, is this one where you're able to recontextualize maybe some people have that luxury and some people don't. I mean if you're from a socioeconomic standpoint or, or um, you know, physically healthy or if you have underlying health conditions, um, does it change the way that you contextualize or able to contextualize COVID-19 in, in the, in the grasp of the larger cosmos? I would say yes. Um, because like you said, there's so many different layers and levels to it. Um, it would be very pretentious of me to say that I have a quickie how, um, of, of how to do it, but I think it doesn't matter to reconceptualize Albert relationship to the illness itself. If we acknowledge, for example, that nature by definition is not out to get us, that relieves some of the perceived threat that one might think of just venturing out.
Dr. Morgan:
That is one starting point. Nature is not our enemy. Nature is not your enemy that is out to get you. So, I mean, I guess taking that approach, what, how can we translate that into kind of practical day to day use? That's gonna help us, you know, if we can't, um, sit down and kind of take a large, you know, a retrospective at the cosmos and how we fit into the universe. Um, if we just take the, the COVID-19 context of the universe right now, how does approaching it that way where it's part of a larger, it's part of a larger, um, uh, system that exists, you know, there's, can you talk about maybe how that can help us in our day to day lives? Yes. And that, that's my favorite part, honestly, to bring it down to earth from, um, fancy elites to talk to real life.
Dr. Morgan:
How does this translate to, um, to everyday? Um, I think everybody that's talking about coven, let's start it out talking about, um, minimizing the inundation of data and information that we expose ourselves to. Yeah. Um, that is, that is a huge piece and that's definitely a starting point. Um, there's a big difference between getting facts or information and, um, getting opinions or, um, emotional responses to what some people think are facts and data. Um, so one place to start, and this cannot be repeated enough is to control what you're exposing yourself to from an information perspective. Pick one or two sources of information. Um, good objective websites. They don't have to be news outlets. Just pick one or two good resources, keep an eye on that. And that's the extent of it. Um, our minds can only tolerate the word crisis or disaster flashing on screens so many times a day.
Dr. Morgan:
So that's, that's definitely a place to start out. Um, and trying to make the most of the little space that we have now that most of us are in one way or another, kind of find, um, to a narrow space. Um, I like to emphasize rediscovering our relationship with nature. Like I said earlier, nature is not an enemy. Um, I can't emphasize that enough, um, to rejuvenate that connection with physical nature around us. Um, does it, does it mean to have to go on a hike just exploring? Um, what is in your neighborhood? What is blooming outside? What, what kind of birds are you listening to? Um, and that's not, um, some hippy fluff. There actually is a strong, um, connection at the biological level, um, between, um, 20 to 30 minutes, roughly a day in nature. Um, and the relief of the biological markers of stress in our bodies.
Dr. Morgan:
Um, fortunately spring is happening outside just so that's a good incentive to do that. Um, another thing that I'll see relational component because just like it has affected our perception of our relationship with nature, it's also affected our relationships with other people. Yeah. I think walking around in a grocery store, no tension is almost palpable when two people are lying to each other. Um, and that's, that's going to linger after this is over. But for now, let's be mindful of rejuvenating that connection with other persons around us. Maybe our physical inner interactions are limited for now. Um, but we have options of telephone communications of video communications and make a point of communicating with at least two or three people a day. Um, try to plan group video calls. Um, but also decide how often you want to do that. Again, the same idea of controlling what you're inundated with, um, figure out that right balance for you, but be mindful and intentional with that, um, connection with other people.
Dr. Morgan:
Yeah, that's very interesting. So, you know, Dr. Morgan maybe hard for people to say, okay, let me, let me approach it from a universe wide standpoint. Let me, let me find where I am in the universe. Let me find where COVID-19 isn't universal. My family is any universe. And you know, it's interesting that we have, you know, I can hear one piece of information, uh, and you can hear the same piece of information, yet it's interpreted, it leads differently between us. Right? So I wonder if the same principle applies if you kind of take a cosmology look at things is if I'm looking at, um, where I stand in the universe where COVID-19 fans in universe, my daily interactions are so small compared to how massive university is. Right? And same thing with you. So is that okay that we have kind of different perceptions of, of where we are, uh, as, as far as where we are in the universe and work over 19 in the universe and how we're interpreted things.
Dr. Morgan:
Is there some sort of universal law that we should all should be paying attention to or, or is it okay for us to interpret things differently? Oh, I, I it's not only okay that we interpret the universe differently. Um, I think it's essential. Otherwise we would be just boring clones of each other. Part of the beauty of life is, um, all these different perspectives that we get, but it does matter. Like why does this whole perspective and relational piece matter? Um, because a big component of our struggles and even if our wellbeing is not only what happens to me, um, but my relationship to what happens to me, to me, um, my perception of what happens to me, and again, that's not be fluff. Um, this is a core tenant of a lot of psychotherapy approaches. That's why we have, um, approaches like, um, choice theory, radical acceptance, acceptance and commitment therapy. All of these are framed around a starting point of very difficult, mostly unavoidable external circumstances. And then we have these approaches of, okay, well how can I relate to them? How can I conceptualize them in a way that is conducive to my wellbeing? And to me being the best me I can be given the circumstances. Okay. So
Host:
I guess I take that a step further. Um, you know, your, um, your area of, of specialty is psychiatry and dealing with, with the mind, which is, um, you know, we can spend hours and hours just talking about how, how we theorize the mind is structured, um, and how, how complex it can be. Um, but you know, looking at the person, you know, the kind of the mind, body, spirit approach, um, how does that fit into the idea of, of cosmology and, and where we're able to control what we can in our universe and, and where we can't control things from a kind of a mind, body, spirit perspective.
Dr. Morgan:
Again, it all comes back to the, um, I hate to sound cliche, but say the power of perception. Um, um, particularly in psychiatric disorders. Uh, not exclusively in psychiatric disorders, but particularly in psychiatric disorders. Um, it doesn't only matter what happens to you, um, but also what you think about, um, what happens to you and what you think about what happens to you is informed, like, um, you said by your mind, your intellect, your cognitive structure and your spirit, whatever that spiritual is, a religious structure or a secular religious approach that doesn't matter as long as you have a, um, connection or a perception of yourself as part of a whole, not as just a separate isolated individual. Yeah,
Host:
yeah. That's, that's, that's interesting. Dr. Morgan. Um, you know, this has been really cool. I think, you know, we're wrapping up here, uh, for our time with this podcast episode. Um, you know, not sure if you, if you want to leave us with a closing thought, but you know, as you're thinking, we can definitely, um, you know, provide a link on this podcast to more information about this topic. Um, and, uh, if people have, um, just a general information or questions rather about about, uh, this they can go to, um, they can go to wake health.edu and in search Dr. Morgan. Um, but Dr. Morgan, as we're wrapping up being discussing cosmology and helping help enough kind of, uh, maybe take a step back and, and, and study the bigger picture here for a minute. You know, as you go through this personally and you go through this professionally, um, you know, as a clinician, uh, what's a closing thought that she, that she can leave with us that, um, a little nugget that we can, we can remember as we go on, uh, from this podcast.
Dr. Morgan:
I think the biggest thing I would want to say is, please don't isolate and don't give in to the urge or not the urge. The, the pressure is to isolate, reach out to friends or relatives or, um, clinicians. We're here to help and we're more than happy to walk with you through this. We're walking through it together. Well,
Host:
I think that's, that's a great closing comment, Dr. Morgan, where we're walking through this together. Um, so I appreciate your time. This has been really insightful. Um, so I thank you for joining us today. Um, I help you come back and visit us for another podcast later on at some point.
Dr. Morgan:
Thank you, Justin, and thanks for providing the space for me. I appreciate it.
Host:
Absolutely. Um, and to all the listeners out there, um, [inaudible] you taking the time today, uh, to listen to this episode and feel free to check out our other episodes available wherever you download your podcasts. Um, just search best health or wake forest Baptist health. And until we try it again, I encourage everyone to please be well,
Speaker 3:
thanks for listening to this episode of the best health podcast brought to you by wake forest Baptist health. For more wellness info, check out wakehealth.edu/besthealth and follow us on social media, wake forest Baptist health care for life.
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