Host: This is the best health podcast brought to you by wake forest Baptist health in partnership with MedCost. Good day everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of the best health podcast brought to you in partnership by MedCost. I'm glad that you are listening to this episode, a very interesting topic that we're going to be discussing today. And I want to begin by saying I want you guys to trust us and I want you all to persevere and listen to the entire podcast. We have a very special guest today and I know I say that a lot, but given the recent tragedy that has, that has happened nationally with the, the tragic loss of Kobe Bryant and his daughter with the the helicopter crash in California. And then the subsequent seems like almost a 24 hour news cycle about that topic.
Host: I know tragedy the idea of tragedy of loss has been talked about around my office lately. It's been talked about around my house recently. And I know there's more local tragic incidents that have happened more locally in our community as well. But that national incident I think has raised the conversation to, to a much higher level than maybe normal. So with me today is chaplain Glen Davis. And he is part of our faith health program administry here that is part of wake forest Baptist health. So welcome chaplain Davis. It's good to be with you. Justin, thanks for joining us today. We're going to talk about a lot of really, really good information and I'm really glad you're here to help us kind of dissect this and process this maybe often difficult topic to topic, talk about, but really important talk topic to discuss and not necessarily just bottle up. But before we get into, into that just start out by telling us a little about yourself. You know, how you got into being a chaplain, how long you've been a chaplain how you found yourself here at wake forest Baptist settle.
Chaplain Davis: Be glad to, it's good to be with you. And I think this is an important topic. I've been at the medical center since 2016 having trained here as a chaplain quite a number of years ago I now direct a first responder chaplaincy program that is part of the faith health division as you said. And our team's quite unique in that we are embedded with first responders out in the community. And unlike a conventional chaplaincy, we are deployed to trauma as it occurs to help first responders in our city and our County and also deal with those in the hospital who are most at risk of sensory exposure. So we are privileged to work alongside the group we like to call our most valuable but vulnerable public servants. Sure. Because they are exposed to some things that most of us never have to see or deal with. But we have a, a four member team. Our program is hoping to grow and we are privileged to do some really innovative work within the medical center and what we see as an investment in the public health of our community.
Host: That's, that's really helpful information. I, I I hope that people listening well, it will take a minute to go onto our website and search faith health and search the first responder portion and learn more about their program. It is extremely valuable. And then I, I've, I've spoken to union leadership in the first responder community in this, in this area, and I know how much they appreciate, appreciate this program. So, you know, there's, we could probably spend hours and hours talking about this. There's, there's college classes on this, there's textbooks about how to, you know, there, and there's, there's, there's different approaches. I'm sure, you know, you can speak to this. There's a theological approach. There's a psychological approach and mental health approach to dealing with tragedy. A you know, how, how certain people, their body physically responds. And, and you and your team, you, you see it every, every day, every week, if not every day in, in one scenario or another. So I guess just talk us through if, you know, we're our family experiences this or someone close to us, you know, that we love if, when you're out there and you, you are in this, in this scene as it's developing, you know, what's, what's the first thing, what's the first thing that you do when, when a tragedy has occurred and you go out there and it's just people are maybe in shock or disbelief or maybe just talk to us about that for a minute. One of the first things you notice with,
Chaplain Davis: With all individuals who are impacted by trauma, whether they're trained, seasoned first responder or just a, a resident in our community is everyone's sense of vulnerability is, is threatened to some degree. Yeah. And that means their sense of safety and security or altered. And so the initial response is sometimes one of disbelief. What do we do next? An immediate need to connect to your support system. So it's not uncommon in the initial phases of any kind of traumatic event for people to want to find some anchor in their lives. That makes them feel safer. And that's usually as a is a call, a family member or a dear friend of mine, your voice. But I, I do think in those initial phases, people have to give themselves permission to know that that event is, is life altering. So again, there's a scale or magnitude about how these things can be more impactful, some more than others.
Chaplain Davis: But again, even a trained first responder has some awareness of how any vet can impact them on a cognitive level, a physical level, emotionally, behavioral, the, all of these things. But that that one area of, of fear safety and security is, is tremendous. So what we would do our team does routinely is when we're out in the community responding to these events we try to establish what that person's coping mechanisms are. Some people have good crisis resolution skills, a phrase we'll often use determine quickly, either by just asking a question or people will tell us by their behavior. They will almost define for them what a critical incident is by saying, I've never had to deal with anything Alexis this before or this, this is so unbelievable surreal and that that gives us some indication that they really don't have any, any tool or tools in their toolbox to address that issue.
Chaplain Davis: But establishing a support for them quickly is, is critical. But everyone has to understand and I think give themselves some self-compassion that this event is, is impacting me. If I can understand why that is happening, then I can better regain some sense of control. I think that's one of the key places where as we engage with people, we try to address that and normalize some of those emotions. And then how can we help restore that person to some equilibrium in their life? Even though they have been wounded and certainly affected by this, this event and, and the range of, of what we define as a critical incident is there's just a wide range of events that would qualify for that. And it's it really is subjective in terms of how people respond to that. And again, because of a person's job role background life experience, they're more equipped to deal with trauma than some others are.
Host: You will, that's very interesting. And I'm glad you brought up this kind of, this help them kind of regain a sense of, of control or equilibrium. Cause I, I could imagine depending on what, what people feel is, is, you know, a tragic event in their lives or a traumatic event in their lives. You know, that's maybe the first thing is they're just in there just sitting there and they're feeling completely helpless about what just happens. You know, so what, what are some practical steps or things that, conversations that happen immediately after a tragic event that can help people process through, through that to where they're, they go from a state of, I don't even know how to function right now to, okay, I can, I can start taking baby steps. I can, I can, you know make immediate preparations for what just happened.
Host: Or then I can start taking baby steps to you know, do the things in my day to day life that I need to get done. Eventually to start getting back to some sort of normalcy if, if I dare use that word. So what's that initial kind of initial couple of steps that you help them process through or initial conversation that you have or maybe it's just, you know, the, the first step is comforting and then later on, you S you, you start talk about you, you talk with them about, you know, maybe next steps of how to, for them to take, take the next step moving forward
Chaplain Davis: Or a good question. And so when I, when I mentioned one of the key ways to help initially is, is to help reestablish some sense of safety, security. Your question brings up the other critical thing, and that's to provide them a place to, to ventilate and to validate what's happened to them. So with them being able to claim and own what's happened and acknowledge, give themselves permission to feel whatever it is they're feeling, any care provider has to understand that it's important to not discount that, to rush them toward healing, that we have to allow people in a very nonjudgmental way to express whatever it is they need to say to, to act as they need to act at that moment based on what's happened. And again, provide the, the validating statements. Sometimes that's our presence, not abandoning them physically or emotionally abandoning them but responding in ways that are constructive and that that begins the healing process.
Chaplain Davis: I think there's a, there's a tendency for all of us and some of us are scripted this way. Maybe, maybe males more than, than, than females. To, to rush through our grief or to internalize our pain, not express it. So if we, if we work in a culture or a family or within a system where there's empathy and concern, compassion where we see other people being vulnerable and we know that's okay. I think those are, those are helpful signs. We, we see that our work a lot of times gets to expose how how, how wellness stands out in a work environment that people truly care for one another. So if that's, if that's preexisting, if someone's pre crisis level of functioning is, is is such that they experienced this level of caring, then when the trauma does occur, whatever that critical is that that pays some real dividends.
Chaplain Davis: The first Morty feels valued. So, so responses of other people, whether those are ones that revictimize us or we traumatize us or do they nurture us and give us permission. So one other way, just to give an example of that. As we know the research supports this, that that trauma has a way of of dumbing down our, our cognitive functioning. So stress really can improve performance dramatically in some initial phases, but when it becomes chronic, then our capacity to function well really, really drops off. And we really don't concentrate as well. We don't make decisions as well. And that's really a critical time to be good for ourselves and for people around us, our peers, to acknowledge that we're not going to be performing at the level we were previously because that's how this trauma's affected us.
Host: And I think, you know, and just going back to the national conversation that's happened recently with, with the helicopter crash and you know, other, other tragedies that have happened in and around this area in the past, there's you, it causes pause or at least it did for me of, you know, what, is there a way for why we're so busy and we're, we have so many things come across our desk, our phones, you know, we seem so busy slash distracted with our day in and day out lives. I don't know if this is quantitative or if anyone has, has put this in any sort of measurement of the work. How much time do we, do we stop and pause and reflect each day, you know or, or think about kind of the bigger picture. You know, is there a way to, for us to prepare ourselves for, for a tragedy or a traumatic events or kind of think ahead of, of what I would do in certain scenarios would, would you even recommend doing something like that?
Chaplain Davis: There are ways we can do that. And you, you mentioned at the outset Kobe Bryant staff. So when we think of that tragedy and many others like it that is amplified by constant news coverage and the social media and all of this. And the irony is I think that we can have instantaneous awareness of things that are happening, intellectual knowledge of it, but not be emotionally prepared to deal with it. We can also be incredibly lonely. As we hear these things, we can have many social media connections, for example, but not be really and authentic relationships connected to people. So we can be grappling with these this terrible news and the grief that triggers in us about our own grief and yet be in a place where we don't have the human connections to process it, but there's incoming.
Chaplain Davis: So I think to your point about how we can prepare one, one thing is to try to strike a balance between what is appropriate vigilance to be aware of what is happening around us. Certainly to have empathy and compassion and be concerned, but to understand there's a difference between simply receiving this information and taking it in and trying to assimilate it and let that nurture other conversations with people that help us work through it. Once say in our team operates with a lot is that trauma does not happen in a vacuum. That we don't have a clean slate or whiteboard that's where we without stress in our lives. So all of these were urgent needs that pop up or what impacts us personally is usually on top of other things. So all of our personal stressors or are amplified by these new events and we're all in different places of, of what we're currently grieving now.
Chaplain Davis: So we we're offering are just overwhelmed by that one new thing. And particularly when it's protracted with an incident like that and there is media saturation, but we're getting lots of information, but not many people are telling us what to do with it and how we can nurture one another at such times. And one way to do that is simply to be more forgiving of ourselves and others to create spaces for those conversations. And particularly where there's no judgment and we don't impose our way of grieving on other people. What's helpful for one may not be for another. But for us to create a environment where we, we trust each other to discuss such things. So we, we've learned, and I think we all know this, that if you lessen the anxiety and any environment you've increased the likelihood that people will be more trusting in particularly with sharing anything that's uncomfortable or painful for them. We have a way of pushing that away. And I think our obsessive Screentime, our attention spans all these things, even with our own families I think we all know that we can be physically present in space, but the rest of us is not the area. And that's not a, that's not an environment in which to learn or comfort or console one another when we have these, these heavy events occurring around us or build trust. Exactly. Yeah, that's a great point. That's such a key word.
Host: We're listening. We're listening and talking with a chaplain, Glen Davis, director of the first responder program within faith, healthier wake forest Baptist health. And I think you touched on a really interesting part. Chaplain Davis about we're very social digitally or electronically, but not necessarily investing in maybe authentic, real
Chaplain Davis: Relationships all the time or as much as we used to, you know, maybe speak to how that can help build up a support network. An authentic support network around you. That can be invaluable when, when tragedy does, does occur in someone's life. Well, there's, there's plenty of research now that shows that not having a support system, that being lonely or suffering from a loneliness, not, not a healthy degree of solitude, but, but actually being without support is detrimental to our health. And then a lot of the research is called loneliness, the, the new smoking. But it really has an adverse effect on our mental health and our physical health. So for us to be receiving this, this incoming, you know, news from all these sources often have that's bad, not positive, not affirming and not have anywhere to, to share that or process it that we have to do that solely on our own internally.
Chaplain Davis: That's not good for us. We know that we need support and yet it's, it's hard to cultivate it. One thing I workplace can do, I think is, is provide for lack of a better term what we would just call pre-incident education was how can, particularly after a family and individual, a group of people have experienced some traumatic event, how can they improve their capacity to deal with future events? So it's almost a secondary tragedy to not learn from those lessons and takeaways. What, what did this event, how we either cope constructively or, or destructively, how did that help us have, what did it teach us that we can apply going forward? I think every every critical event we managed to survive and resolve has, there's an opportunity there for our crisis resolution skills to to be bumped up a notch.
Chaplain Davis: And then we pay those, those forward. I think with those around us. So, which is really is a a cultural change. I think a shift toward what it means to be more resilient and practice wellness if you work in an environment like that. And I've said this to employees before in a lot of, a lot of different places that, that that is a a work benefit that's invaluable if you truly have people in your work place family who, who value one another as whole persons and that we we do help one another through these events. And don't pretend that we just have a toggle switch. We can flip and work stays at work and home stays at home. Very true. These things travel with us and they affect our behavior with one another. And our work performance, there's, they're cost-effective reasons to address these things, to not just just basically compassionate.
Host: Sure. You know, and so let's take the scenario that we're part of someone's support network, right? So if I'm part of someone's support network, I think, well, I've, I've found my, I'll use myself as an example and I found myself not being able to find the right words or what's the right thing to say after this, this traumatic incident has occurred or this tragedy has occurred in someone's life. And you go up and you know, you on a basic level, you can, you put there, put your arm around them and comfort them, but you know, what, what's the right thing to say? Is there a right thing to say? You know, I feel like, Oh, it'll be okay. That's, that's maybe the facto, one of the first things that wants to come out of my mouth. But I'm like, is that maybe one of the worst things to say right now? Because it's their feeling. Maybe it's never going to be okay again. You know, what, in your training and in who you, all the, all the workshops in, in classes that you've put on, you know, have you, have you talked through maybe some of the basic communication pieces that, that you can talk with someone if you're part of someone's support network and you find yourself in that situation, you know what's, what's the right thing to say? Is there anything in the same,
Chaplain Davis: Yeah, well, there, there's, there definitely are good things to say and a list of things you never want to say. Although we all have inadvertently probably harm people by our words or sometimes what we fail to do. But I think when people are in a state of shock, they are also forgiving and not paying attention, always to all the extraneous words and happenings around them. But I think to, to be an advocate of doing the right thing and sometimes our role is simply one of protecting those who have been injured. So if we, if we're sick with the flu, I mean, we, we need people to give us some, some TLC and meds and bed rest, whatever. We, we should treat people who are going through grief in a similar way and realize that they need a little extra protection.
Chaplain Davis: Now we need to give them space. They're not, they're not an emotional envelope because they've gone through this event. But how can we be an advocate? And that often means how can we protect them from people who might demand more of them than they can give now simply to protect them from potential further harm from someone else. In the case where someone has died on, I know family members do love to hear their loved one's name spoken. Okay. That's one basic thing to understand that people their energy levels, their capacity to respond and deal with life prior to the crisis has suddenly changed. So to help them conserve energy to understand that they don't need judgment, they don't even need a lot of words. So the basic part of your question, I'm, what, what can people do?
Chaplain Davis: As I mentioned earlier there, there are two ways to abandon people and one is to just physically turn away from them to treat them as if they they have some disease or we can't, we can't be around them. They, we quarantine them or something. But to be physically present with someone to simply listen and be a compassionate presence is, is a big thing. But we can emotionally abandon people too when we rush to change the subject. If they are letting us know often in clear terms that this is what they want to talk about or I need to say this, not necessarily if you respond, but, but just let me say it. We need to allow that and not feel that. My job is to be the cheerleader. I need to get you over this bad bad period or experience you're going through.
Chaplain Davis: And that's that's something people find difficult to do. They they need to understand that that's very healing for someone just to say, you you, you stuck it out with me. It's not what you said. You, you stayed, you stayed close by. You were available to me. Accessible. Okay. And didn't just shun me at a time when I was going through this difficult period. That's very encouraging. And I think that's what, you know, we want to, we want this podcast to accomplish is not just to be, you know, a, for lack of a better term, a Debbie downer podcasts and talk about tragedy, but what, what, how can we process it? How can we help be a support network for those around us in our circle of influence that I've have dealt with it or are going to deal with it at some point.
Chaplain Davis: And then you know, we'll get to an amendment may be positive silver linings that can come from tragedy. But before we get to that, I have one other quick question, just kind of dividing the timeline a little bit and wondering if you could speak to that of, so there's the immediate aftermath of tragedy of a tragic event, a trauma, and then there's, then there's a little bit later down the road and I'm gonna make an assumption and since you deal with first responders and you've, you've worked with them for years and years and years, you've, you've maybe seen or talked with people about PTSD. So, you know, I are the resources out there. If you start noticing that sometime after a tragedy or a a traumatic events people maybe start exhibiting some signs of PTSD. Are there resources or, or referrals that you can share where, where people can, can find some help?
Chaplain Davis: Absolutely. And I think the hospitals will ask with those resources. So care net is a part of the faith health division. So I look at it this way. There's, there's a tier of resources, multi tiered system of the immediate crisis. And then for that, a group of people or individuals that I think theirs is actually small compared to the larger numbers who with expeditious, compassionate care respond rather well and quickly to a lot of these events. But for those who are already predisposed to further harm because of a preexisting crisis in their life, other issues, mental health concerns, there has to be this other tier of resources. And, and first responders are at risk for PTSD as, as others are to again, their level of sensory exposure is very high on a frequent basis. So the intensity and duration of that, it can be remarkable at times. And their training and experience has prepared them to deal with that, you know, more easily than just anyone else. But, but I think that that extra set of resources is crucial.
Host: Sure. and I think you mentioned a great resource with faith health. If anyone would like to find more information about that, just feel free to go to our website, WIC, health, ADU and search faith health and see or you can simply Google it. It'll, it'll pop up where you feel you can call seven, one six week, and they'll get you in contact with the right people as well. So when you are out I want to talk about this and see if we can frame it in the proper context. You know, oftentimes you're called out to work with first responders during a time of, of crisis or tramp tragedy, traumatic event. But when we were talking earlier, I thought it was valuable that you brought up the idea of having fellowship with your circle of influence or your peer groups during times of, of non tragedy and how that can be so helpful. Going back to the earlier topic of trust and, and kind of maybe having these walls that we as humans put up sometimes tear down those walls. And I thought that was a really good point. And I wonder if you could speak to that for a minute as critical. And I think
Chaplain Davis: Our team describes it is that we are embedded in the cultures we're serving. So, to your point, it's it's very important to build trust in noncritical times and not just show up when the disaster of the traumatic event has occurred. And that's particularly important to remember with first responders because to do the incredible work they do, they are actually trained to distrust what many of us would trust inappropriately. So they, they do see the world through a jaundiced eye. They're more careful, more vigilant. And that's true even of the people doing first responder like work here in the medical center, our security officers who protect and keep us safe here. Sure they are scanning and noticing, observing things and the rest of us often take for granted. So that said, I think first responders as a, as a family of public servants are slow to dispense trust because of the nature of their work.
Chaplain Davis: So when they do invest in you and do trust you, that that is just extremely valuable. And when these critical events do occur, you already are a known entity. They would be far more resistant to someone just showing up at the time of tragedy who hasn't invested that relationship early on. But that's also true for, for all of us. I think we we become incredibly inappropriately self-protective when we're injured, whatever that injury is. So we are, we're going to be more discerning about who we let into our circle and who we talked to. So again, the, anything we can do early on and before these things happen to educate ourselves and our, our work cultures, how to, how to be more caring, you know, how do we teach people to learn to actively listen and respond to really all, all kinds of crises that can occur in anyone's workplace.
Chaplain Davis: So if I may say this, we can, we can take any event that impacted the world like Kobe Bryant stuff. But then from that pause sort of take a self inventory as you were saying earlier, Justin, to think about, well what are all the other just a myriad of things that happened in our lives that should also demand that we pause to value the present, to look around us, to see people differently. Stop looking at our screen so much. Pay attention, make eye contact. Those are all ways we incrementally build trust with people. But it's not uncommon after, after these events for people to sort of reassess what, what am I doing that's meaningful? How do I want to change my life? And you know, I've literally, our, our worldview is altered by many of these events cause they do give us that pause you mentioned too, to just look inward and say am I living a meaningful life?
Chaplain Davis: Am I making a difference? Am I paying attention? Am I caring about the right things? And those are some of the redemptive outcomes from any tragedy. There's a spirit of altruism. We want to help more rank and titles sort of go away as people start to look at each other as, as fellow human beings who are, have all been wounded by, and and out of that, I think Rosa sort of a shared not just a history, but some new resilience that pays off the next time something occurs. There's bonds that last a lifetime because something terrible happened. But it brought out such good in people that in some cases individuals tell me they've never experienced that level of caring before and they don't want to return to whatever their old life was, where there was that was missing. Yeah. I think that's, that's a great point. And,
Host: You know, sometimes you wonder, or maybe maybe I've wondered, you know, at what point is it okay to stop I guess maybe being reverent and quasi silence and respectful and start thinking about, okay, well, what, what could be, what conversation can come out of this? What difference can be made out of this strategy? How can we, how can we collective we as a society, as a community? As are our circle of influence, you know, however, hypo hyperlocal you want to make it to everyone that's listening, you know, what difference can we make based on this tragic event that's occurred. And I think you touched on a couple of great points about, you know, this, this sense of unity that happens oftentimes sense of community, the sense of caring. You know, you, you heard a lot of you know, if you were paying attention to the media this week, I think you've probably, a lot of people maybe saw video clips or listen to audio clips about you know, people that are on TV every day making those types of comments of, you know, if, if this type of event causes you to, to call out and say, Hey, you know what, you need to call your family and tell them you love them.
Host: You need to stop. You need to eat, go home and hug your kids tighter tonight and tell them, look them in the face and tell them that you love them. So that on that very, I guess basic level for lack of a better term, but then there's more, there's more of this kind of community impact kind of feeling or, or movement that can come out of tragedies at times as well. And I'm sure you've seen that from time to time, especially from tragedies in the first responder world as well. Is that correct?
Chaplain Davis: Absolutely. Well, it unites people and it doesn't mean that all your, your differences and disagreements go away, but, but certainly for that period of time you're, you're much more aware of of your common needs, your, your need for support, your ability to help each other. And there's for, for all of these different behaviors to be put in place, there's, there's a timeline there that's really critical. I think it is, if this is a part of an initial response to, to these impactful events it, it tends to have a contagion effect. People really want to pay it forward and modeled the behavior, change how they're living, responding to one another. If, if this grief isn't validated, if there is no recognition given to it, if if we work in a place where we were sort of told maybe we'll get, get back, get back at it again.
Chaplain Davis: You know, that productivity is more important than carrying any of those messages are so counterproductive to people's healing. But I think there, there's a that Wyndham speaking about, I think you could parallel would be the golden hour medicine. There's a, there's a, there's a window in which if we don't respond appropriately and timely to people, they start to shut down. They they don't feel cared for. Their perception is that if someone isn't around them, peers, family, colleagues affirming that they, this event has affected you. We care about you and want to acknowledge that they don't feel some of that. Then that that whole set of emotions, gifts they pushed inward and can be become destructive.
Host: Yeah. Well we're, we're talking with chaplain Glen Davis and we're wrapping up here in a second. I just want to thank you, chaplain Davis for being here. I know this is helped me kind of process through, you know, the recent events and, and help put a voice to processing through tragedy and trauma and I hope people listening will, will listen through and get some takeaways from, from this podcast as well. I encourage people if they're interested in finding out more about faith health, they can go search face faith health through our website and carrying that through our website as well. There's additional resources there for people should they need them. But as we're wrapping up, you know, I think some of the key takeaways, and you correct me if I'm wrong, that I heard you, you know, as as is tragedy happens in someone's life and it can be, you know, very hyperlocal or you know, something on a national scale such as the, the helicopter crash with, with Coby and his daughter.
Host: You know, it does, we should take Paula's, we should do an inventory, but if you're in someone's support network, I think you were saying, you know, just being there is such a great comfort being there. Number one, you know, validating them. Number two, actively listening. I picked up on that phrase that you mentioned and I, I've, I found a lot of value in what you were saying in that actively listening. And for me that maybe that's stuck with me because I don't feel like I have to come up with saying all the right things and keep talking and providing some sort of, you know, the clouds are spreading amazing nugget of wisdom to help these people heal right away. That's not my, that's not my job necessarily, but my job is to actively listen and just comfort and in to help them in.
Host: And I think you're right, as, as, as a tragic event happens that, you know, there is this sense of compassion and caring and unity that comes out the vast majority of the time. And, and, and people do find a silver lining. So I appreciate you being here and I don't know if you have any kind of closing thoughts of, of, to share people about, you know, being able to see that silver lining and, and that there will be, there will be a tomorrow after the tragedy for them and then a day after that. And to maybe not take that for granted.
Chaplain Davis: I think people, people find strength in dealing with people who are nurturing to them and people who show compassion to them. Not again to reiterate what you just said, that, that just have the, the right words, but that, that stay with them through the process, check on them and yeah, so a, another, another, another thing to just keep in mind too is to realize that these these emotions can revisit people after some time. And we just like grief. It's not a straight line, not a process that can be hurried. So whether these events are more localized or national, international, there, they're all kinds of triggers that can cause these emotions to, to come back with some some force. And again, part of, part of our own self-education helping others is to realize that that's quite normal. Whether that's a date, a conversation other things that will trigger memories and be difficult, but that simply respects the, the fact that that it takes time and time heals as the old saying goes, but it's a half truth really.
Chaplain Davis: It's what we do with that time. How we invest in our own self care and allow others to care for us. And I, I know I've learned and, and, and my colleagues keep reminding one another that it's a lot harder to be a cure receiver than it is to be a caregiver. Sometimes we are reluctant to allow others to care for us. That's a good point. So we can't, we can't begin to care for those around us if we do not practice self care. Yeah. And that's everybody around us as a beneficiary of our own investment in our wellbeing. And if that's mentor in the workplace, you can imagine how that can change a culture quickly. And people, people who feel valued are in a much better position to have a better outcome after all of these events cause we know they're going to continue to happen. We, what we can control is is, is at least trying to improve our capacity to deal with them and how to help each other. Yeah.
Host: Two great closing points and I think that is a good, good place to stop for, for today. And thanks everyone for listening and appreciate you all staying with us through this podcast. And I want to thank chaplain Glenn Davis for joining us today. If y'all have any other questions, like I said, check out the website [inaudible] dot EDU and you can also give us a call if you have any other questions or if you need any additional resources. Seven one six wake. So until we chat again, be well.
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